Question:
Was Vietnam a 'just war'?
aurevoirtori
2009-01-31 05:34:48 UTC
these are the characteristics which define a 'just war'. can you answer yes or no with a reason?

1. war started and controlled by authority of state (on both sides)
2. those attacked deserve it - just cause.
3. war fought to promote good and avoid evil - just intention
4. war is last resort, other ways of solving conflict have been tried.
5. innocent civilians should not be killed, proportionality - only the necessary force or weapons should be used.
6. peace must be resumed at the end of the conflict.

please dont answer with a one worded, one sided answer.
this is for my philosophy hmwk - so whatever your PERSONAL views are, please reserve them for elsewhere.

please consider both sides.
thankyou :)
Twelve answers:
Mary B
2009-01-31 05:54:18 UTC
it was necessary to stop the spread of capitalist imperialism in southeast asia.
Doc
2009-01-31 14:22:57 UTC
1. Had at the end of WW II, the French not asked the Japanese to stay on and police the country until the French were in better position to take over, the war in IndoChina most likely would never have taken place. Had Kennedy not dismissed Eisenhower's "All Or Nothing" policy regarding the use of nuclear weapons as well as Eisenhower's prerequisites for invading a country, the U.S. would never have gone into Vietnam. As is, Vietnam was a proxy of the cold war and was conducted by the Russians, Chinese and the U.S.. So, "No."



2. North Vietnam attacked the South. They did not deserve being attacked.



3. That's a subjective and is more a matter of propaganda employed to drum up support. I'm a capitalist, so for me, the answer is "Yes."



4. Diplomacy never truly entered the equation until late in the war.



5. Other than children, in war who is truly innocent? If you work in a factory making weapons for a company who then sells them to the government you are still guilty.



6. "Peace" occurred after the U.S. backed out, having been promised that the North would honor the peace settlement. Sadly, that "peace" was quickly shattered when the North failed to live up to their end of the agreement. Not to be out done, the U.S. had promised to return should the North go back on the deal. They did not return and millions were slaughtered, tortured and imprisoned when the North invaded without abatement.
djb3500
2009-01-31 15:37:27 UTC
Hi - I will get to your criteria however first, a preamble. How you define what "the Vietnam War" is really sets how you look at the whole issue. If you look at it as an attempt by the "North" to attack the "South" backed by the Chinese Communists your answers above tend to come out in favor of the US action, particularly applying the first set of criteria.



However, I really think you need to see it in context. From 1905 onwards Vietnamese nationalists sought independence. This was largely a peaceful movement. These independence movements were suppressed with a great deal of brutality, and not a lot of justification. They became more radical and the first Communist elements started during this radicalisation process in the 1930's.



During WWII the Japanese invaded and retained the French administration. (France was ruled by then by the Pro-German Vichy regime.) The French / Japanese acted barbarically and millions of Vietnamese died. The nationalists started fighting the Japanse as well as the French. The western powers made a deal with the Vietnamese independence movement that if they helped fight the Japanese they could be independent after the war. (Note, the persons who gave this impression had no real authority to do so.)



In 1945 with the fall of Japan the independence movement declared a government by the Viet Minh, a coalition of all of the nationalist independence forces. This was strongly influenced by communist elements.



At this point the war time promises were forgotten and the Western powers used the same forces that had been fighting for the Germans (including re-armed Japanese POWs) to get fight the nationalist Government. Now, the legitimacy of this Government was pretty dodgey - however it clearly had popular support and in the power vacuum was no less legitimate than any other.



Not surprisingly, the Independence fighters decided that the West could not be trusted and turned to the only alternative - Communist China & Russia for help. This cemented the communist influence in the new Government which (due to the deep seated historical distrust between Vietnam and China) was by no means a forgone conclusion until that point.



France set up a puppet Government in the south and a general uprising followed. Both governments claimed to be the true government of Vietnam.



The Communist countries recognized the (Northern) Vietnamese state in 1950, and from that time onwards the US started to get involved in support of the French. (first Indochina War).



By 1954 the French had been comprehensively defeated (look up Dien Bien Phu) and during a peace conference in Geneva Vietnam was temporarily partitioned between North and South. It had been agreed at the Geneva conference that there would be a general election and the country as a whole would choose its future.



The Americans knew that the majority of the population supported the Communists (whom they saw as their liberators) and therefore backed a separate regime in the South which declared itself to be a sovereign state and refused to participate in the election. In 1955 the Southern regime started to wipe out the Communist opposition by torture and execution. This led to armed resistance by the Communists backed by the North and by China.



The Americans intervened in support of the southern regime and what the US sees as "the Vietnam War" (second Indochina war) kicked off.



Now, obviously I think that the Vietnamese people to that point had been badly scr3wed, and right or wrong the northern government had more claim to legitimately rule the country. There was no historical justification for a "North" and "South" vietnam and although it had some support the Southern regime was corrupt & brutal. If you therefore look at this as the end of a long conflict, rather than the start of a brand new one your criteria above look very different.



Applying my perspective I have the following view. Sorry - this is going to be no more than an opinion, but that is all you can really get after all.



1. war started and controlled by authority of state (on both sides)



Yes, certainly by the North. The point where a revolutionary regime becomes a "state" is a bit of a grey area, however by this stage (1960 or so) it would be hard to argue that the North was not a state. The legitimacy of the South as a separate state was a bit more problematic. I regard it as a foreign puppet state, however others disagree.



It was never just a war between North and South, however. The Viet Cong, southern insurgent revolutionary force separate from the North Vietnamese Army and therefore treated by the US as terrorists. However, if your village is being burned and your family tortured and shot, what are you supposed to do ?



I also dispute that a "Just" war can only be conducted by a state actor. If that were the case, the American Revolution, the French Resistance and the ANC's insurgency in South <> balance of my answer is cut off. However, from my perspective of the history I guess you can see which way I would jump.
hermit
2009-01-31 13:48:17 UTC
Lot's on innocent people were killed in the Vietnam war as they didn't know who were the enemy so I guess it can't really be a 'just war', unless you take America's side and promote Communism at absolute evil.

Peace came when America left and all the conflict was pointless as Communism happened anyway.

America got involved to support democracy but really they were just as bad as the Soviet Union and China because they only wanted democracy if the idiology they wanted won.

America shouldn't have been involved to start with so I don't think it was a just war, but you have to understand that the USA were worried about the Communist spread, and needed to stop it.
Gorath of the Ardanian
2009-01-31 14:13:10 UTC
Ngo Dinh Diem was effectively a dictator ruling under the pretenses of democracy. He is famous for his brutal repression of the Buddhists which eventually led to the equally infamous photo of Thich Quang Duc as he burned himself alive in protest.



Ho Chi Minh was a brutally efficient leader who said "Do not engage in military operations; that will lead to defeat. Do not take land from a peasant. Emphasize nationalism rather than communism. Do not antagonize anyone if you can avoid it. Be selective in your violence. If an assassination is necessary, use a knife, not a rifle or grenade. It is too easy to kill innocent bystanders with guns and bombs, and accidental killing of the innocent bystanders will alienate peasants from the revolution. Once an assassination has taken place, make sure peasants know why the killing occurred.”



If you are asking if the war was morally justified, then yes. From both sides, since morality is a relative concept, it can be adjusted and it is affected by the actions that are committed by an individual or political/governing entity. Consequences dictate our course of action and it doesn't matter what's right.



The US justified their actions in Vietnam/Cambodia/Laos as morally acceptable since they were fighting the 'menace' of communism. The Vietcong justified themselves as fighting the forces of yet another oppressive, imperialistic power. Both sides used propaganda to appease their populations and garner support.



As per your characteristics of a just war, both sides had just cause and both professed the desire to fight evil. Peace negotiations were ongoing throughout the majority of the war. Innocent civilians were killed and otherwise affected in droves. The VC justified it as them being loyal to the Ngo government and the US. The US justified it as them being indistiguishable from the local populace.



The war was a spectacular failure for the US (Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos are still 'communist'), much like Carrhae was to Rome.
spooky_eerie_spooky
2009-01-31 14:07:05 UTC
Again read LBJ's book "Vantage Point"



The American public was overwhelming in favor of the war-I know I was one of them at the time.

Also, and most importantly, the country at that time was in "Social Upheaval"-that is the best way I can describe it.

The "Just War" you are looking for is lost in the sense that LBJ thought he was doing all those reasons 1-6 you are describing.

History can be unkind at times but LBJ thought that by getting all the useless "flunkies" (his word was much stronger as only a Texan could say) out of the country(Blacks,useless,aimless whites,anti-government protesters ect.ect.) it would improve the country for the working class(that supported him) and it did.

That is exactally what my family wanted at the time-if you don't like it here-leave.



s_e_s



I know that really fails to answer your question but by the way you phrased it-there is no answer.
Dr. Fell
2009-01-31 13:42:24 UTC
The Vietnam conflict (technically not a war because war was never declared) was simply meant to be sustained. The Gulf of Tonkin situation was a bit fabricated in order to escalate the conflict. Lots of money to be made in wars.
2009-01-31 16:41:57 UTC
War to prevent war is never just in my view
?
2009-01-31 16:44:25 UTC
Is any war `Just`, mostly the arms producers thought so.
2009-01-31 13:42:57 UTC
It was necessary to prevent the spread of communism in Southeast Asia.
gora
2009-01-31 14:11:58 UTC
Is killing and causing suffering to others just at any time??

Take care and best wishes always

GOURANGA GOURANGA GOURANGA
brainstorm
2009-02-01 06:36:12 UTC
no, it was imperialism at its worst


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